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Why not use MU for WPMU development conversation? (23 posts)

  1. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Here's a thought: why do we use BB-forums for this group? If the community has so much conviction about using wpmu, how come we are not using it to communicate at mu.wordpress.org or at wpmudev.org?

    Cheers, M.

  2. drmiketemp
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Because wpmu is logging software and bbpress is forum software.

  3. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Ok. So why use forum software?

  4. demonicume
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    because this is a support forum

  5. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Also, WPMUDEV.org is not run by "Automattic".

    And what would using MU here solve, really?

    Um, nothing?

  6. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    When does support forum content become reference material?

    Ans: on mu.wordpress.org, never.

  7. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Look at it this way...

    How does having a blog here, solve anything?
    It doesn't. It would further scatter stuff, and finding
    anything would be a complete pain.

    If the documentation is not satisfactory, you may feel free to tell the owners and management of this site that you feel so.

    Other than that, bitching about it here in the forums is futile, as many, many who have came before have proven.

    They all come in, ready to change the world (or thinking they can), and you can see where it's currently at.

    Andrew put up a wiki, back in the day, so any user could help put documentation together. It flopped, because you know what happened? All the ones whining and crying didn't want to help make it, they just wanted other people to do it for them and use it. So, nothing was added, changed, or updated.

    Andrew is again contemplating another attempt at it. If he does, we'll see what happens.

  8. andrewbillits
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    It won't be happening unless someone steps forward and volunteers to run the site.

    Basically i'd install everything and then hand over the wiki admin account info. I'd also give ftp access.

    I honestly just don't have the time (or interest) to try to run a wpmu wiki site again.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  9. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    There ya have it.

    Straight from the man's mouth.

    Yet again, we see what happens. I think I'll call the bookie on this one. I know exactly where I'm placing my wager.

  10. ekusteve
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    I don't think there is a large enough user-base here on the mu forums to sustain a wiki for documentation...it would be futile to try...in my opinion.

    The forums here are quite good if you know how to (and are willing to) search.

    The documentation wiki on the regular wp site is one of the best I've seen anywhere, but there is an infinitely larger and more active user-base there.

    Steve

  11. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Let's not have a separate wiki. Use Codex.

    I agree, I was frustrated back in Sep-Oct that I was pretty much the only person to update topics. Since then there's been about 2 updates a month by others: http://codex.wordpress.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchangeslinked&target=Category:WPMU&hideminor=0&days=365&limit=500

    Piling up "reference documentation" into the forums as FAQs is futile. Forums as a medium cannot accommodate improvement to content quality. Like blogs, the forum is just pages and pages of accumulative conversation rather than something like a wiki that composts to something richer.

    Unlike wordpress.org's single user site pages which lists in the top menu "Docs" as a link to the wiki:

    Home - About - Extend - Docs - Blog - Support - Hosting - Download

    MU's top menu has no such link to the wiki:

    Home - FAQ - About - Forums - Download

    (MU's "FAQ" is static: there is no docs that are dynamically updating, unless you count "sticky" posts, but they soon get distracted into chatter that cannot be refactored.)

    So, how about links to the WPMU wiki pages on Codex? 1) http://codex.wordpress.org/Category:WPMU 2) http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPressMU and possibly 3) the recent changes link I gave above.

    M.

  12. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Do you "ever" get the "impression" that maybe some of the smoke and mirrors in this dog and pony show may be intentional?

    I was just thinking about this earlier while reading through the paper.

    Not that I'm laying blame or trying to tick off the dark overlords (laugh Donncha, it's ok), but maybe, just maybe, what if the lack of documentation is somewhat intentional?

    Follow me with this for a second. Yeah, WP has the codex, and there are tools there to work with, yet there isn't much there, and it isn't linked from here.

    I wonder how many people become frustrated because of that, and can't figure it out on their own? They then give up, and don't use MU. Therefore, that leaves one less competitor out there doesn't it? All the while the perception is maintained of a "friendly" environment.

    Basically, if you can't figure it out, "too bad, so sad".

    OK, so that's more like a conspiracy theory, but still not completely outside the fence.

    Sure users are free to hack away at the codex all they want. What, you can't see all the documentation that there is already? Hmmm... I wonder why there isn't much there?

  13. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Yes, I have often got that impression.

    If it's not the organizers intent then the community would do well to make this place more inviting.

    If it is the intent then they might as well tell us.

    I was encouraged by the fact Donncha's response to http://koala.ilog.fr/twikiirc/bin/irclogger_log/wpmu?date=2007-07-13,Fri&sel=125#l121

  14. demonicume
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    thats the most disturbing thing about this place. i LOVE this software and its potential. but i hate that there doesnt seem to be any marketing to new users going on. when you wanna tweak stuff or improve stuff - there's no documentation.

    i havent seen any proof that the powers that be have any interest placating noob users or new users with experience in other endeavors. if not for a few people here, i'd have moved on to something like squarespace or back to Joomla *shudder*.

  15. andrea_r
    Moderator
    Posted 16 years ago #

    When Wordpress first came out, there was a mantra repeated often by the first hard-core users over there : ""read the code". IE; if you want it bad enough, figure it out. It's the same thing here, and lunabyte's only typing out what I've maintained ofr a long, LONG time.

    MU is a mod off WP. It kinda has to come out under the GNU license as a derivative work, BUT they don't have to support or document it. And you can see they aren't. I mean, why would they? Why would they help direct competition?

  16. ekusteve
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Actually, there is no requirement in GNU license for anyone to release the mu code. If they (I assume "they" are wp.com)wanted to keep the mu code to themselves and not give it to anyone, that would be perfectly legal. So the fact that it has been released at all is at least something good.

    Steve

  17. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/96509133/m/670004305831 :

    "There are a few known high profile wordpress mu (multiuser) and LDAP installations but this project seems to pride itself on producing very little documentation."

    ----

    It's true, there is no short-term gain for Automattic to not help document the project. Long term though is a different story. And until I hear a declaration explicitly declaring that they don't want open source documentation because it would erode their other offerings, I think we should push ourselves to get some decent documentation in place.

    Let's continue this on the original thread, as we are away from the subject title of this thread.

    http://mu.wordpress.org/forums/topic.php?id=748&replies=11#post-33518

  18. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    Really though, we're not away from the root of the conversation.

    We've had this discussion how many times in the past? More than I care to count. It's always the same thing: if you want it, build it.

    They've all been "go getters" when it's time to talk about it, but when it comes down to actually doing it, they vanish.

    Really, can we discuss something else? This is pointless to keep going round in circles every couple of months.

  19. andrewbillits
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    I usually don't like to get involved with these threads but I agree with Luke on this one.

    The fact that documentation for wpmu is scarce isn't a secret. We all know it.

    Is there anything keeping someone from adding documentation? No there isn't.

    You don't like the codex? I'll give you your own wiki site.

    You think that everything should be in the codex? Great, you can register here.

    I honestly don't think anyone should be complaining about the lack of documentation for *any* open source project. It's free.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  20. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    I am not so much complaining about the lack of documentation (i.e. that any given individual should "go forth and document") as to that there is no signposting to direct those of us who might want to contribute.

    I documented a great deal on Codex already.

  21. andrewbillits
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    mrjcleaver,

    I wasn't referring to you alone. I was making a reference to the MANY users in the past (and present) who gripe about the lack of documentation.

    As for there not being any "signposting", that needs to be taken up with the powers that be. While they may occasionally read the forums, you're going to have a much better chance if you email them directly.

    However, I must admit that I think you'd be wasting your time with such a request no matter what.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  22. mrjcleaver
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    For every person who gripes about the lack of documentation there will be at least one other who just gives up and works on something else instead. Thats MANY people walking away or searching, finding and using what they find and NONE building on content to save the duplicated, inane, questions and multiple, incompatible responses.

    To protect the investment any and all of us in this piece of software we have to get people doing their bit to contribute towards recycled content. Even if 1% of the forum postings resulted in a decent wiki page we'd inch towards good content.

    I am simply stunned at the resistance to using a wiki.

    I am all on for emailing the admins, but frankly, if everyone disagrees on the request, what's the point? I'm trying to help improve quality, not impose things that no one else wants.

  23. lunabyte
    Member
    Posted 16 years ago #

    "For every person who gripes about the lack of documentation there will be at least one other who just gives up and works on something else instead. Thats MANY people walking away or searching, finding and using what they find and NONE building on content to save the duplicated, inane, questions and multiple, incompatible responses."

    Less competition for "you know who", and it's probably more turning away than that.

    Then again, MU and the responsibility that comes with it isn't for everyone. This could be one way to weed those folks out, without specifically saying don't do it. Not that I'm saying that's the intent, but the real world is cold sometimes.

About this Topic

  • Started 16 years ago by mrjcleaver
  • Latest reply from lunabyte